As many of you will know, DEFRA’s highly controversial (I would argue insane) hen harrier brood meddling scheme was initially approved to run for five years between 2018-2022, facilitated by Natural England.
For new blog readers, hen harrier brood meddling is a conservation sham sanctioned by DEFRA as part of its ludicrous ‘Hen Harrier Action Plan‘ and carried out by Natural England, in cahoots with the very industry responsible for the species’ catastrophic decline in England. In general terms, the plan involves the removal of hen harrier chicks and eggs from grouse moors, rear them in captivity, then release them back into the uplands just in time for the start of the grouse-shooting season where they’ll be illegally killed. It’s plainly bonkers. For more background see here.
The brood meddling sham has been hailed by those involved (e.g. Natural England and the Moorland Association) as delivering ‘real’ and ‘great’ progress because the number of breeding hen harriers has risen since the trial began.
However, the number of breeding hen harriers isn’t really the issue – its the ongoing illegal killing of hen harriers that’s the issue. It’s pointless pumping out more hen harrier chicks if they’re just going to get shot/trapped/have their wings ripped off/have their heads twisted and torn off by criminals within the grouse shooting industry once the young birds have been released.
The participants in the trial have been congratulating each other on the trial’s so-called ‘success’, whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that illegal persecution remains rampant – e.g. we know that at least 92 hen harriers are likely to have been killed since this ridiculous pantomime began in 2018 (see here).
One of the grouse-shooting estates involved in the brood meddling trial was even under police investigation for suspected raptor persecution during the trial (see here) and another grouse-shooting estate should have been under police investigation during the brood meddling trial following the discovery of a poisoned red kite on the estate but, shockingly, North Yorkshire Police refused to investigate (see here).
But instead of bringing this sham to an end last year, at the end of the initial five-year trial period, Natural England has announced that a new brood meddling licence has just been issued to extend the sham for at least a further two years (2023 and 2024 breeding seasons).
The announcement was made by Natural England here on 4th May 2023 and I’ve reproduced it below in case it disappears from the Govt website:
I find this decision to extend the brood meddling trial utterly beyond comprehension and earlier this year, when I knew an extension to the licence was being considered, I submitted an FoI to Natural England to try and understand the logic/rationale for continuing with an expensive trial that simply hasn’t delivered in terms of getting the grouse shooting industry to stop illegally killing hen harriers.
I asked three simple things:
- For a copy of the most recent assessment report on the hen harrier brood meddling trial from Natural England’s Scientific Advisory Committee (NESAC);
- For confirmation of the end date of the brood meddling trial;
- For confirmation of when a final assessment report about the trial would be submitted to the NE Board.
Here’s the response from Natural England on 16th March 2023:
In relation to Q1, I was somewhat surprised to learn that NE ‘does not hold the NESAC report on the hen harrier brood management trial‘.
Eh? Does that mean the NESAC hasn’t produced an assessment/evaluation report? If it hasn’t, who has? I’ve since submitted a further FoI request to determine if anybody at NE has produced a report, and if so, where is it? Surely someone has produced an assessment report, otherwise how on earth has NE assessed the application to extend the trial?!
In lieu of not having an NESAC assessment report, NE did provide ‘a summary of the Natural England Scientific Advisory Committee decision on the brood management trial of hen harriers‘. That summary document, dated 18th January 2023, is provided here:
According to this document, the NESAC has advised the Natural England Board that a five-year extension to the hen harrier brood meddling trial ‘would be appropriate‘. Notably, the ‘full note’ mentioned at the beginning of the document (called Annex 1) was not released as part of NE’s response to my FoI.
In addition to asking NE for a copy of any assessment report on the hen harrier brood meddling trial, I have also submitted FoIs requesting a copy of the licence application for the 2023/24 licence extension and a copy of the actual licence.
Further information about the brood meddling trial has emerged through a separate FoI request I made about NE’s senior management team’s day trip to Swinton Estate (one of the brood meddling estates) in February this year (see here). I’ll be writing about those revelations shortly.
Raptor Persecution UK 
I think its a good thing. Other species are having help so whats the difference, curlew head starting, golden eagles being moved, red kites released, white tailed sea eagles, its a real chance to get the harrier to be a little bit more numerous, but I would try releasing the young in areas in Wales where theres no harriers breeding, or perhaps the Broads, the harriers could then decide where to fly to.
What part do you not get?. 92 illegally killed !!!. They have had a head start then get killed. Show me the logic in that
19 a year? Boo-hoo.
That’s your argument against a multi million pound industry?
Nah
Well, if there is (as you suggest) an overriding case for the persecution of protected species to support the industry, then the industry should campaign openly and honestly for a change in the law and state it’s positions clearly. i.e. let’s have an honest debate about what they want, and why they want it, and why they cannot do without it. There would then be no need for the industry to rely on this ongoing and decades long web of lies, deceit, corruption and the misuse of democratic power to try and con the public as to what landscape-scale game management is all about.
What part of obeying the law don’t you get?
The law obviously stinks again in favour of the wrong do’er
And you are a what? Shooter, gamekeeper, persecutor of no particular affinity? Just wondered why you follow his blog if your opinions/arguments are so basic & mindless. You maybe help give un-needed help to your peers bad name. They wont thank you.
Am I reading your comment correctly?
Are you really suggesting the criminal persecution of Hen Harriers is acceptable as this is the price society has to tolerate so that a minority of individuals can go grouse shooting?
Hen Harriers are a bird protected by law, laws which were passed by parliament, and laws which were deemed necessary to prevent certain species such as the Hen Harrier from being driven to extinction.
The UK is country governed by the rule of law, or would you prefer anarchy, and a situation whereby governance is conducted by brute force and intimidation? Have you seen what happens when laws are tossed aside by those who wield guns and violence?
The Hen Harrier is also a bird on which vast sums of public money is being spent to help their conservation.
The BTO suggest there are only about 545 pairs of Hen Harriers in the entire UK.
I understand that there were only 34 recorded successful nests in 2022, and in the same year it would now appear 21 birds have been killed or disappeared due to criminal persecution.
The UK population of this bird is still declining and all the evidence indicates that this is due to illegal persecution associated with grouse shooting.
So, are you really suggesting that this is acceptable because the grouse shooting industry generates what is in reality a miniscule sum of money each year when compared to other areas of the economy?
If grouse shooting was banned it would only effect a tiny proportion of the population, the economic loss to the country would not even be noticed, and it could potentially open up other better and more profitable uses for the grouse moors which could then play a much greater part in halting the decline in nature and enable much greater natural biodiversity.
It is also worth reminding yourself that any industry which relies on criminal behaviour to exist simply has no place in this country.
However, I suspect you have simply posted the comment to get a reaction, because in some small minded way this gives you some amusement.
“19 a year? Boo-hoo.
That’s your argument against a multi million pound industry?
Nah”
I assume from this that you are really speaking for Natural England’s ‘Science Advisory Committee’?
Clearly you are unfamiliar with Hen Harriers or their conservation and otherwise, may I suggest that you correct this and read a great deal more about Hen Harriers before commenting further.
Lots of accusations here.I smell a conspiracy here by certain body’s to rubbish the success of this scheme.I notice again it is the words supposedly Suspected,dead red kite found conveniently poisoned on Grouse More????Which is accessed by lots of people,even by some who hate shooting with a passion.ISuppose or suspect that this type of person could quite easily obtain a kite(they do die of natural causes you know)doctored it and placed it where it would be found.Rediculouse think about it?????
Ridiculous. In more ways than one
What success?
Wind farms not responsible for some then.Like they have been made to admit after keeping silent,and letting the blame be taken by the shooting community????
Are you deluded, or just dishonest?
Typical attitude of the hunting fraternity who think people are forensically falsifying the death of birds in order to cast a shadow over their pastime. You need to think before spouting such rubbish.
“Rediculouse” “certain body’s to rubbish the success” “Grouse More”
All the attributes of a lead-contaminated, addled brain.
What you think won’t change the fact that this is a front to allow the continuation of the killing of Hen Harriers. It in no way tackles that problem which can only be solved by either immediate extremely severe licensing or preferably the banning of driven grouse shooting.
This farce is in order to stop the ban which would stop Hen Harrier killing and Peregrine killing overnight. It is a sop to the driven grouse moors.
Can’t believe we still have to point this out all these years later.
‘The harriers’ could then decide where to fly to’! North Yorkshire looks nice – that should end well!
Give me strength.
The Hen Harriers will inevitably end up in the vicinity of grouse moors at some point, given the sheer amount of them, and then will face continued persecution. What is difficult for you to comprehend about this? I suspect your ‘keen birder’ name refers to ticking boxes and not their welfare.
No youre completely wrong there Paul about me.
“I think its a good thing… its a real chance to get the harrier to be a little bit more numerous”
Is that the real view of Natural England’s so-called ‘Science Advisory Committee’?
“the harriers could then decide where to fly to.”
Wow, such generosity! Thank you, kind sir. Fancy that, allowing a wild bird to just “decide where it could fly to”! Whoever heard of such a thing?
Does your generosity extend to allowing Hen Harriers to fly to.. grouse moors, by any chance? Do you also think that is ‘a good thing’?
You know there is something to hide when they are so bizarrely obstructive.
There are so many conflicts in this jibber, yet the corpses keep piling up. Surely the HOT need to look to their conscience and ask why they continue to raise chicks just to be slaughtered? They have answered the part of the project they were responsible for… They are free to walk away or are they completely corrupt.
It’s simple. BAN grouse shooting! It’s immoral and cruel. People who kill for sport are not right in the head. This is the 21st century not the dark ages. Ban all blood sports.
It has become a joke, let them do more meddling at great cost, let them fly free and then they kill them. A sad nonsense really.
I agree that it is beyond comprehension. Kwai Bridge territory.
This stupid exercise has done and is doing appalling damage to Natural England’s credibility, and it has done zip for the conservation of Hen Harrier. It really has to be shown up to the general public as the bad joke that it is.
just as with our badgers that are a PROTECTED SPECIES. iI CANNOT EXPRESS HOW ANGRY AND UTTERLY DISGUSTED I AM WITH NATURAL ENGLAND AND I HOPE THAT WE OUST THIS WORST EVER xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx CON PARTY MEMBERS
I think the harrier scheme should be expanded into areas where there are no grouse estates, at least they stand a chance of breeding successfully on their own and the chick’s may have a chance to grow up and breed themselves.
Raptures are having a hard time at present which I feel is disgraceful,that poisoning and killing of these beautiful birds is unjustly allowed to go on.
Need tougher laws and tougher protection for them.
I really hope that we can truly protect raptures, the current situation is just not good enough.
They can be taken elsewhere to breed and fledge but they have wings and fly to suitable territories for their species, namely, Heather moorland = grouse shooting estates where they are killed
I think we need to move this from the misleading narrative that this is about Natural England, Tony Juniper, or whoever being naive or incompetent. Self-evidently, NE are under some sort of internal political or departmental pressure to go ahead with this sham. I called it a sham, because it is nothing but a fig-leaf for the driven grouse shooting industry, which are basically senior members of the establishment, and those with connections to this party in government.
No one, credible, thinks this is an effective way to allow the recovery of Hen Harriers, which would naturally recover very quickly, if they were not being illegally killed and illegally persecuted in an orchestrated way by the driven grouse shooting industry. The old pretence that this was a few bad apples is long gone, as satellite and radio tagging of Hen Harriers, proves this illegal persecution is very widespread across most managed grouse moors. On the face of it, the illegal persecution of Hen Harriers seems to be almost standard practice. There might be some grouse moor managers not taking part in this, or to a lesser extent. But it is clear that they are the minority.
The only obvious reason Natural England would continue with this, is it is in the interests of the grouse moor owners, and that these are senior members of the establishment, and many have strong connections with the party in power. There must be considerable government and ministerial pressure to continue with this sham. It makes no other sense. It is much like Badger culling. Where most of the experts said it was useless and counter-productive, but those who mindlessly follow orders for the sake of their careers, went along with the political pressure.
Have you seen Juniper’s comment here, Stephen?
And Andrew Killtruth’s blatant distortion…
Very well stated, and probably very close to the truth.
“I think we need to move this from the misleading narrative that this is about Natural England, Tony Juniper, or whoever being naive or incompetent.”
and
“”It is much like Badger culling. Where most of the experts said it was useless and counter-productive, but those who mindlessly follow orders for the sake of their careers, went along with the political pressure.”
We assume we know there is political pressure. The Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 describe this as ‘guidance’ or ‘directions’ from the Secretary of State (which happens to be DEFRA, the ‘sponsoring department’) but which must be published. This was actually imposed on Natural England by the last Labour Government (see below).
So why did Juniper accept the job? He was doing something else, at the time. Why doesn’t Juniper resign, seeing the harm he is helping to perpetrate? He was a Green Party Parliamentary candidate. What is Juniper’s role in not publicly speaking out against either the Badger cull or brood-meddling?
Is he a Green infiltrating the Tory Government, or was he a Tory infiltrating the Green Party?
Natural England is the Government’s statutory advisor for the natural environment. They say “We help to protect and restore our natural world” as an executive non-departmental public body.
The last Labour Government decided to emasculate it under sections 15 and 16 of the above Act (lookup the history of the Hampton Principles, or the Hampton Report, which Labour eventually forced down the throats of all public bodies).
Why is it ‘misleading’ that Natural England’s betrayal of our natural environment is about Natural England and its Chair?
It is ALL about Natural England, and how the Labour Government made it legislatively subservient to the Executive, and how the Lib Dem/Tories, and then the Tories on their own, have subsequently used that power.
And why do the Greens not speak out against Juniper, their ex-Parliamentary candidate?
What makes you think your the true justice in this,with all the mitigating issues here you people are so much up your own arse and with such arrogance, can ride roughshod over everybody else.well there are lots of people me in included who will block you and fight you tooth and nail to get at the real truth
In my opinion this scheme has been cooked up to try and portray the grouse shooting industry as progressive and conservationist, when in reality the whole reason it exists is because of the grouse shooting industry’s attitude towards anything except its profitability. I’m pretty sure that if it were not for them, raptors in general would be far less persecuted.
This scheme would have far less credibility if NE pulled out of it. It would also be a good starting point in repairing self inflicted damage to the reputaion of NE.
Brood management has never really about Hen Harrier preservation but more about preserving the reputation of the grouse shooting industry.
One thing is for sure, Hen Harriers are still being killed in numbers that threaten their existence and the brood meddling scheme has done nothing to improve the welfare of Hen Harriers.
“This scheme would have far less credibility if NE pulled out of it.”
Err… no, it would be illegal if Natural England ‘pulled out of it’.
https://naturalengland.blog.gov.uk/2022/08/26/more-than-100-hen-harriers-fledge-in-england-for-the-first-time-in-over-100-years/
They seem to be doing something right.
You miss the point entirely. For every successful “show nest”, birds are still being killed. So fledging success alone is not an indication of population increase.
“They seem to be doing something right.”
You mean breeding more birds for your fellow shooters to illegally kill, you mean?
Oh dear, the NESAC Update report does not stand up to much scrutiny. I see Natural England are even resorting to social sciences to provide the necessary gibberish clap-trap to cover this collusion in the extirpation of the Hen Harrier.
Social Science Expert Panel my backside!
“The trial had two key objectives- to test captive rearing and to test persecution
reduction”
We know that captive rearing will work… why wouldn’t it? But to ‘test persecution reduction’ the analysis has “not been completed” (after how many years?)… so NESAC decide that the second test can be reduced to checking… ‘breeding success’. Again!
Apparently, “the acceptance of brood management is in a fragile state.” You don’t say!
But this is where social sciences come to the rescue.
“Data was gathered using semi-structured interviews… Contributors included landowners, gamekeepers, Natural England staff, those in the wider shooting community and the Moorland Association.”
Wow! Everybody who wants to kill raptors were consulted.
“In addition, purposive sampling used “information power” to reach a more relevant audience.”
Uh? But, being the charlatans that they are, they do not explain who this ‘more relevant audience’ is, or were. My guess is that it was absolutely no one outside of the shooting industry!
But here’s the bit… “The theory of change results show that brood management seems to be enabling or driving a wider attitude change.”
The ‘theory of change’ – a way to explain how what you want to happen, is actually happening.
Apparently, Google says there are both 5 theories of change and 7 theories of change:-)
But ‘results’?
They claim “There is evidence of changes in both attitudes and behaviours, positive engagement with trial and idea of having hen harriers on their moors. The theory of change direct route appears valid.”
They are trying to say (using stupidly clipped language) that the tiny number of moorland owners who participated *may* be a bit more conducive to the presence of Hen Harriers, but no evidence is provided. It is all subjective opinion held in their own minds.
“The indirect route around non-participants is not clear. There is anecdotal evidence of engaging in dialogue and debate.”
Apparently, to Natural England’s “Senior Ornithologist” the continued/increased killing of Hen Harriers (and other raptors) means that the attitudes of moorland owners who were non-participants was ‘not clear’.
But that the continued abuse of conservationists, and the Directors of Wild Justice, do indicate “anecdotal evidence of engaging in dialogue and debate.” And this is enough to endorse continuing with the ‘trial’.
NESAC was pleased that “the decisions on continuation of the trial were to be made based on the evidence gathered.”
So… the more fledged Hen Harriers illegally killed, the more evidence this provides to continue the trial. Hey, the ‘theory of change’ in operation!
NESAC say “The enforcement angle wasn’t present in the theory of change model and could be explored in more detail.” Really?
What a report. George Orwell would be delighted.
Magnificent and irrefutable. Bravo!
Lifting eggs was done and nobody said a word when sparrowhawks eggs were taken to facilitate illegal Goshawk reintroduction.
They were replaced with Goshawk eggs that was was how the goshawk was illegally reintroduced.
Absolute silence from the rspb etc.
The Mauritius pink pigeon and Echo parrakeet were rescued by pulling the first round and parent rearing the second.
The scientists who were clueless on aviculture turned to an Aviculralist and they were doubling the young birds reared.
You can learn alot from us avicultruralists.
I would be the first to agree that there has been an unnecessary and damaging split between aviculture and conservation in the UK, but not all captive release schemes are well-founded. This one isn’t.
It’s been shown, over and over again, that the fundamental threat to the survival of the Hen Harrier in England is illegal shooting. Which group of individuals have access to firearms, have access to Hen Harrier habitat, and have an incentive to remove raptors?
Please rethink what you have just posted.
Yes and so are comments targeting shooting people,wind farms have admitted to killing these birds after being forced to do so.RSPB silent over changing eggs over of different raptors,and you lot condemn programs of Hen Harrier breeding as meddling.Then there’s planting doctored birds so Joe Public can easily find them conveniently on keepered ground,and yes there is illegal shooting of raptors not always to do with shooting people,yes we abhor this needs weeding out (bad apples)but don’t tar all with same brush.All media eg BBC some press condemn shooting off these platforms but the shooting fraternity is never allowed the same exposure to plead their case,it’s all very one sided
Planting “doctored birds”? Please tell me where I can read about confirmed cases.
I believe a popular term to describe this post is “word salad”.
Look at the RSPB report last week. Look at the numbers. The overwhelming reason why adult Hen Harriers die in the UK is because they get shot.
Therefore any “conservation” measure that involves the driven shooting community, and indeed involves its appeasement, is liable to incur some scepticism.
Then have a look at the RSPBs latest exposure.Hiring in pest controllers to reduce the no’s of Foxes an corvids which are ravaging their sites,but keeping it well out of publics view,frightened that their coffers will suffer if Joe Public see it.Then have the nerve to condemn keepered ground for doing the self same thing,which works.And gets right up their nose because they know it does.Like to comment on that would you?
Would you like to apologise for, and retract your fabricated claim of “doctored birds” first? Then we’ll address your latest distortion regarding lethal control measures by the RSPB.
When you’re ready…
Got a long wait then
Q.E.D.
Zero evidence.
Zero credibility.
Zero honesty.
Predictably, Mr Wright is reluctant to provide any evidence for, or retract his falsehoods.
His coyness notwithstanding, let’s address (for the benefit of those who may be misled by his twaddle) his ill-informed/dishonest? analogy between the conservation measures undertaken by the RSPB (which it has never attempted to conceal), and the wholesale, purely profit-driven slaughter of any species viewed as competing with their selfish ends.
https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/b/actionfornature/posts/the-conservationists-dilemma-an-update-on-the-science-policy-and-practice-of-the-impact-of-predators-on-wild-birds-9
The difference beween the two is patently obvious to even the most dull-witted among us.
Yea as l said they wait until the damage is done before taking action.And anyone can dress it up as being wonderful,with a few smoke and mirror words
And their answer is certainly misleing you lot isn’t it?
I understand your remarks that not all in the game shooting industry are criminals, and it is unfair to label them as such.
However, when it comes to predator control, it would seem the RSPB only do this when absolutely necessary, and only for conservation of endangered species. They appear to be totally transparent on exactly what has been controlled, the reasons why, and can fully audit any predator control undertaken.
Shooting estates on the other hand engage in predator control to create conditions which allow for an unnaturally high number of game birds to exist. This is simply part of the business model of running a commercial shoot – where success is measured by the number of shoot days, and bag size. The predator control comes about not to protect endangered species, but simply to produce game birds in sufficient quantities for numerous days of commercially organised shooting.
I very much doubt that most shooting estates can fully audit all the creatures killed as part of their predator control, or provide a rationale behind this killing, other than the creation of an artificially high number of game birds.
There are some exceptions where some estates are engaging in genuine conservation work -I understand the Bolton estate in Yorkshire is actively trying to conserve Curlew through proper habitat and predator management -but such estates are very much the exception.
The problem for the shooting industry, and something you don’t address in your comments, is why the shooting industry hasn’t dealt with embedded criminality which operates across so much of the industry. All the umbrella organisations profess to not tolerate “raptor persecution”. But these words are never translated into meaningful action, where those engaged in criminal behaviour are exposed and expelled from the industry, and those estates where the criminal activity is occurring barred by the organisations which organise shoot days.
The shooting fraternity only has itself to blame for the bad press it often suffers.
If it effectively dealt with the embedded criminality, was totally transparent in all its actions, and could demonstrate that the illegal persecution of raptors was no longer a feature of so much moorland management then the bad press may well diminish.
The evidence clearly shows that Hen Harrier brood management has not resolved the problem of illegal persecution. It never will, as the birds removed will simply fly back to the grouse moors from which they were removed, as these moors are their natural habitat, and the artificially high number of grouse are always going to tempt the birds back to an available food source.
The birds are then illegal killed as unwanted visitors- and so the cycle repeats.
It’s a flawed methodology, that even even the most none scientific can see through.
The real solution will probably only ever be achieved when game shooting becomes a properly regulated and licensed industry, which leaves no place for the criminal to hide, and when those in the industry no longer tolerate the criminals hiding amongst them, and accept that an increased national raptor population might diminish game bird numbers, but with these diminished numbers comes exclusivity, which economically means the cost of game bird shooting increases. (Big game shooters pay a lot of money to kill one animal- maybe killing less game birds is part of the solution?)
You are still missing the point that by leaving it till it gets out of control,you are loosing more threatened species than you need to.By having a plan of predator control and not like you claim as zero tolerance because that in creases the No of protected species which in turn will effect the ecosystem.We have never advocated total wipeout if we had we would not be facing this problem.And as for only one estate doing this conservation work,I’m sure there are others who don’t shout it from the rooftops.And also do not want all these bodies throwing loads of red tape at them,and when are you going to give me a name?
It’s worth remembering that nowhere else in the world where we find Red/Willow Grouse (USA, Canada, Northern China, Russia, the Baltic States, and Fennoscandia) is driven shooting practiced. It’s a feudal relic that enables fairly mediocre hunters the chance of killing birds if they are rich enough.
And that is your conclusion is it, yet another lefty anarchist comes out.And I’m not interested in other country’s just this one,so are you going to try and twist my comments into dsomething they are not?
Not particularly lefty, certainly not an anarchist. Just someone who believes that rational argument should be based on fact rather than unsubstantiated allegations. And most reasonable people would think that if there is a problem it’s sensible to see how others deal with the same issue.
Incidentally, your grammar and spelling need attention. They don’t help you.
And while we are on the subject you say driven bird shooting can only be accessed by rich people.How little you know.I’m a plumber now retired and I’ve been doing this for the past 60 years eg beating ferreting loader bit of part time keepering improving habitat for bats doormice field mice owls and lots of other wld life by what we do.So good luck with twisting this
“I’m a plumber now retired and I’ve been doing this for the past 60 years eg beating ferreting loader bit of part time keepering…”
Ah! What I hear the shooting estates’ landowners routinely refer within their ‘circle’ as ‘lickspittle’ ?
“wind farms have admitted to killing these birds after being forced to do so”
Err… not in the UK, they haven’t.
“Then there’s planting doctored birds…”
Err… no one has ‘planted’ a ‘doctored bird’.
“but the shooting fraternity is never allowed the same exposure to plead their case”
You don’t have a case. Making up ‘stuff’ isn’t a case, it’s an illness.
Yes and you are blinkered to all the conservation the shooting fraternity do,to help protect endangered species
“Yes…”
You admit it.
“and you are blinkered to all the conservation the shooting fraternity do,to help protect endangered species”
I once asked a gamekeeper whether they would bother killing foxes, stoats, crows etc if they were not protecting game birds. “Would I fuck”, was his rather pithy reply.
Well there’s gamekeepers and then there’s the wannabes who are not committed.And guess what you were lucky to pick one of the minority,(very small minority)isn’t amazing how you just managed to do that,mmmmm
Of course, if Curlews and Lapwings ate Red Grouse chicks, they’d be for the chop as well.
Alternatively, if Red Grouse predated Curlews and Lapwings, would heroic gamekeepers come running to the rescue, and obliterate them in the name of “conservation”?
We all know the answer to that one, don’t we? The decline in Slow Worms and Adders, for example, hasn’t stopped the dumping of millions of their predators into our countryside each year; all courtesy of the shooting non-industry.
But they don’t do they,taken under their wing like many other red list species.And you are clutching at straws
Isn’t there a bridge you ought to be hiding under to wait for billy goats?
I see this is degenerating Into silly sarcastic remarks.Might as well pack it in you silly little boy
Sixty next month and I am trying to point out that your behaviour on this thread has removed any chance of anyone taking you seriously.
And I may ask is why is there a lack of these all over the country.What about heathland and loads of land not shot over.perhaps it’s the fact that Bussards Red Tail Kites etc are becoming more and more common.Or could it possibly be that these are the cause of the continual decline.And when they become so prolific which they already are in places.What is your exit strategy as to reducing their no’s,or like the other over protected predators do nothing while they all keep decemating wildlife.While you lot stick your head in the a sand and whistle out your arse
“And guess what you were lucky to pick one of the minority”
I didn’t pick anyone: the gamekeeper approached me. In surveys, the vast majority of gamekeepers say their ONLY job is to maintain high game densities.
Which predators do you kill?
Pull the other one you really expect me to believe all these gamekeepers are going to commit job suicide?Like you keep asking me let’s have some names of these guys?And for the umpteenth time let’s have your name
“you really expect me to believe all these gamekeepers are going to commit job suicide?”
By refusing to illegally kill raptors? No.
“perhaps it’s the fact that Bussards Red Tail Kites etc are becoming more and more common.Or could it possibly be that these are the cause of the continual decline”
(Blimey, anyone ever see a ‘Bussard’ or ‘Red Tail Kite’? – apparently they are “becoming more and more common”. And I’ve never heard of them.)
It is curious that before shooting gamebirds was invented – and their predators were not ruthlessly persecuted – Curlews and Lapwings were far more common than they are now. How can that be?
“And for the umpteenth time let’s have your name – Pete Wrong”
:-) Maybe, stick to plumbing?
[Ed: Ok, this is becoming tedious. I’m closing this conversation]
Oranges and Apples.
Are you trying to defend Natural England’s ‘brood meddling’ of Hen Harriers, for some reason?
“The scientists who were clueless on aviculture turned to an Aviculralist and they were doubling the young birds reared.
You can learn alot from us avicultruralists.”
But not if you think that the ONLY solution to Hen Harrier illegal persecution is to raise birds away from grouse moors, so that when the young fly back they can be illegally shot, trapped and poisoned.
Explain how that ‘improves’ things for the Hen Harrier. You could provide some numbers, for example.
Or, are you some weird ‘avicultrualist’ who thinks that young Hen Harriers never naturally visit grouse moors?
As if they weren’t obvious before, Peter Wright now reveals his true colours with his last comment. Among the gibberish lies the telling phrase…
“over protected predators”
In recent times, his lot like to talk a good game, about “zero tolerance” and all that. But once narked by having their dishonesty/hypocrisy exposed, they forget such pretences and revert to type.
Once again, Q.E.D.
You can slag me all you like,and instead of making me out to be a villain.You still haven’t answered my question how will you control these predators?by lethal means or by your hairy fairy attitude of capture and re release,only to find that in the case of raptors they fly back to their territory that they have established.On other predators you capture and re release.Sounds great but all you do is move the problem to somewhere else.On a different note you keep vilifying me by flashing my name every time,so who am I talking to.and don’t give me a copout by saying raptor persecution.So go on grow a pair and tell me
“You still haven’t answered my question how will you control these predators?”
Why should we ‘control these predators’?
“by your hairy fairy attitude of capture and re release,only to find that in the case of raptors they fly back to their territory that they have established.”
That is Natural England’s, and the grouse shooting industry’s policy for Hen Harriers.
Even you can see that will not work, because your gamekeeping ‘friends’ and shooters will continue to illegally kill them, won’t they?
There you go again taring all with the same brush,and stop keep running round in circles
Because you all belong to same industry indulging in the illegal persecution of raptors.
You are engaged in an evidence based argument against an opposing point of view. You will win or lose based on the evidence and research you can point to that supports your views. Names shouldn’t really matter. As an example, I am still waiting for you to direct me to cases where a “doctored bird” was planted. I have never heard of any.
Well they are not going to advertise the fact are they?I am pretty sure if they were caught you would here about it.We would not let an opportunity like that go to waste by not shouting it from the roof tops,rather like you do even though it’s sometimes unfounded.As for condoning persecution do you really think we would turn a blind eye.when to do so would put our case in more jeopardy.When cases like this our found out they are dealt with severely,but they are not advertised because you lot would only make more capital out of it
So no evidence then. Nothing at all. You are not worth me or anybody else indulging the time to converse with.
Getting a bit near the bone am I?
Far from it, you are just an ignorant bore unable to formulate a cogent argument on any one theme, which is why you do the old “what about” thing and move on. I and many others could do a decent job of making the case “for” the status quo of game shooting (such as it is) if I chose to, and I can see what a complete arse you have made of it and of yourself. You have mishandled every aspect of the argument for gamekeeping and driven shooting to an embarrassing and shambolic degree. Fallen into every stereotype and highlighted every prejudice. Have you yourself ever read any intelligent pro-shooting literature, for example by the GWCT? Or have you just jumped on the jingoistic bandwagon of one or two self serving You Tube channels? I can almost hear the groans of wise shooting folk following your comments and muttering, “for God’s sake man, shut the f-k up”. Anyway, keep pecking away on here by all means, you are a great recruiting tool (tool being the operative word) for those that demand legal change and tough regulation & enforcement of shooting. Your contribution to that endeavour is much appreciated by all. From me to you, it’s goodnight just now…but come back to me on another thread that you have some knowledge on, or at least a genuine concern for.
Hard but fair!
And yes names do matter so again what’s yours?
And I never said zero control i said control which covers many options.You must be getting a bit desperate to start accusing me of things I have not said,shame on you
“You can slag me all you like” says Mr Wright, as he hilariously jumps from one foot to the other in a lamentable stream of whataboutery.
In one comment, he openly advocates the killing of “Bussards” and “Red Tailed Kites”, based on yet another lie regarding the effects of predation, but then later attempts to deny that he condones such actions.
Dear oh dear! We’ve had some good ‘uns on here over the years, but he’s ploughing a furrow all of his own!😄